A Lively FB Discussion on the Reality of Dark Matter

A recent question I posed on facebook. Many responded in a lively discussion. My responses are named, and others not, for their privacy. I thank all for their comments.
Is the universal dark matter, which is described by theoretical physics, empty, illusory or possessing the characteristics of a non existent phenomenon?
"Ist die universelle dunkle Materie, die durch die theoretische Physik beschrieben wird, leer, illusorisch, oder besitzt sie die Merkmale ei...nes nicht existenten Phänomens?" - DGR ---

very empty

I think maybe it has the characteristics of a non existent phenomenon

Rinpoche: non existent phenomena are like the child of a barren woman or the horns of a hare. They do not exist

They say it is matter which does not reflect light. I would say it is both illusory and empty (but does it matter?)

But it has an energy associated with it

we both exist an do not exist...it's pretty amazing...

so it must be illusory?

then it cannot be an non existent phenomenon... or could it?

N, how do we exist and how do we not exist?

a phenomenon exists and has energy so I guess

L, so, if it exists then we might say it is real?

om gate paragte parasamgate boddhi yes svahaaaaaaaaa!

N, so how do we exist, if we do not exist due to transcendent identity

It is real if it exists

But a snowflake is real until it melts

we might need to discover various points of reference to understand different kinds of real... isn't that so?

we exist in the flesh but our soul is transcendent

lama said...if i hit you do you feel? and Blake said...if a thing loves it is infinite, the ego is transient...but then there is the abyss...the thing in between...the mystery ♥

what is real could depend on where our identity is lodged. If we identify with the transcendent, the world easily appears dreamlike and unreal.

The thing in between the mystery exists then? It is love isn't it?

What if your frame of reference moves between the transcendent and the physical

What if you view the physical through the eyes of the transcendent?

then is dark matter empty, illusory or non existent?

neither. dark matter is merely the matter that we don't have the ability to see, yet. We may have to wait for future discoveries, or maybe a new stage of the life/death cycle. But I don't think it's very different from visible matter.

At this point, dark matter only "exists" in mathematical assumptions.

yes but those assumptions are compelling...IMHO

dark matter is illusory depending on your frame of reference ...it has an energy and it exists in your mind like feelings, thoughts, one's soul

feelings thought one's soul do not occupy "space" but they do exist
it does not possess the characteristics of a non existent phenomenon because the characteristics of non existence is used in the explanation of all phenomena regarding its quality of emptiness. which mean somethings existence is devoid of ...any intrinsic self-hood or independent reality, no essence that can be reduced down to identify it as real - instead things exist as a amalgamation of its aggregates - therefor examining the reality of something , no single part of it is the thing being examined - it only exist as the combination of all parts and factors, creating on a conventional not an ultimate level the existence of whatever it is (and ultimately an illusion) your talking about empty space, that's just space which will at some point be fill with a sun planet moon or asteroid in which case the existence of the astroid will be dependent on the space it occupies. so um.... . maybe in a way it does possess the characteristics of non-existence, but so does everything.

non existent phenomena is an interesting category.. they do not exist even in conventional reality! So, the real skeptics of this theoretical dark matter would have to say that it is NEP, a kind of fairy tale!

therefore phenomena can not be explained by referring to non existent phenomena

They are of the same phenomena that we are... they are neither existent nor nonexistent ...

true, a phenomena means that "an object or aspect known through the senses rather than by thought or intuition" and as "a fact or event of scientific interest susceptible to scientific description and explanation"

However, Buddhism more largely includes mental phenomena such as concepts or thoughts to be phenomena. If we include consciousness as a sense (as it is in Buddhism) then thoughts would be part of the senses. I am not sure about intuition as phenomena.. would have to think about that

Rinpoche: In the second quote, theoretical science could contain valid phenomenon?

But if thoughts are part of the senses then they are "felt" like we feel pain or love or sadness but not all thoughts emote a feeling...

I think it's mostly empty. Did you see the movie about the young man in Japan who thought up dark matter, then shot himself? It was just a theory...in the movie he never prove it to the university. Things seem illusory because we don't know what they are and change over time. It's a great word but could describe many things. I like the word ephemeral these days. 'Non-existence'...is there such a thing?

so your saying that thoughts and concepts exists in isolation and are dependent on no factors for their existence? they exist because of there own intrinsic self-hood do they and arise because of no conditions or causes? ... i think all phenomena is non existent. everything appears to exist on a conventional level, but that is the illusion. what is your idea of non existent phenomena, and or phenomena that does not exist on a conventional level? what are examples of this "interesting category" you speak of?

the child of a barren woman and the horns of a hare are two classic examples

Illusory means that they appear differently than their nature. Ephemeral would be more subtle, wispy or less real or valuable

whats is the child of a barren woman and horn of a hare?

dark matter is "material in the universe which cannot be observed directly" but exists

the more we agree that dark matter is a phenomenon the more it appears within our gravitational pull here. Otherwise, how do we explain that Scientists have estimated the distribution of dark matter and dark energy in the universe according to the past and the present? 13.7 billion years ago, they believe the universe was comprised of dark matter (63%), neutrinos (10%), photons (15%), and atoms (12%). Today, scientists estimate the universe is comprised of dark energy (72%), dark matter (23%), and atoms (4.6%). Anyway, all I am saying is that it was illusory until it wasn't.

I know very little about dark matter, however if dark matter is connected to regular matter like up is to down then it is subject to interdependent nature and therefore illusory as it is not the basis for reality due to its composite nature.

Do you trust your intuition more than your reason?

Is that a general question or for me?

I was thinking out loud after reading what you said:
"If we include consciousness as a sense (as it is in Buddhism) then thoughts would be part of the senses. I am not sure about intuition as phenomena.. would have to think about that"
But the question was directed generally... however, would love your thoughts

I treat them like my left and right leg.

Be guided and you shall find your true self.

but intuition is transcendent and immanent and is connected to the energy of the universe..and reasoning is based on the here and now

Love ♥

I am chuckling cause I just realized that intuition cannot be analyzed or thought about... in a rational way... it just can't

ok, it is a phenomena because it is there and it is a factor and condition that supports our existence, our solar system and everything. to confuse it with Buddhist terminology such as "non existence" and "emptiness" is silly - it has no correlation. ok, empty space whatever you want to believe it to be is phenomena because its part of the interdependent factors that helps give rise to our existence. emptiness in the Buddhist sense, like i said before, is a description of the fact that things in reality are "empty" of a inherent self-hood or identity or existence that is not dependent on causes and conditions - there is nothing that exist in isolation - therefor the existence of everything has to be explained by laws of karma and the interdependent relationship of everything...... but now i think about it.. things do spontaneously mutate and that subsequently gives rise to new organisms, and likewise, creativity seems rather spontaneous and independent, so maybe there is things i can't figure out hahahahha

you cannot "figure it out" because intuition has to be felt... it is outside the everyday world until we allow it in... so much of Buddhism (Vajrayana especially) is devoted to developing intuitive and telepathic senses. This is not part of the analytical reasoning brain. Instead it is the part of you which is the mind... the wonderful mind that is not of this world

So this would be phenomena that would be found alongside the 'edge 'of the universe; if indeed it ( the universe) does have a stopping point ?

Illusory & empty. Not a skeptic about dark matter. Something explains the phenomena that the scientists posit dark matter to explain, and whatever it is, it will be tagged "dark matter."

emptiness is not equal to nothing, emptiness is not equal to not existence, phenomena are empty and phenomena have existence, but existence is impermanent, sorry I am not good writing in English /\

not one of my worries, fortunately! ;)

When we speak of the entirety of the universe, the "law of infinite probability" comes into play, in which case everything you can think of must be true, someplace.....

Interesting discussion....

A tree has a relationship with its leaves. Does that relationship continue when the leaves fall? After all the leaves will become compost and return to the soil and these nutrients will flow into the roots....does the tree 'recognize' them ...as its own material when this happens....If there is a relationship when the leaf falls this is an 'emotional' link with the leaf, beyond the physical, and as unseen we can call it dark matter.
In the Quantum field, Einstein's "spooky action at a distance" occurs when identical matter are separated by time and space - yet still oscillate when the other is agitated. Would suggest a relationship beyond the physical. As all life in the world shares a common origin, we all have something in common with everything else. Therefore we can all experience a link/feeling/sensation that connects us in this quantum way to something far removed from ourselves. In this sense we are all antenna, and feel these connecting influences...and since all the universe comes from the same origin...we can extend this across all time and all space.....dark matter is our relationship with everything, it is our collective consciousness and it is the fabric that supports the entire universe.
~I am happy to call "dark matter relationships"... Love

D.. if there were a way to "tag" water molecules, you would find that we have drank water from every living thing on earth, probably more than once... not to mention every living thing that has ever lived... and, many times, we have drank water that was previously a part of our own bodies... if we drink a gallon of water, we also put out a gallon in terms of waste, perspiration, and expiration. We lose "all" our water when we perish... There is "infinite connectivity to all living beings" in this way... but, innately, we have no ability to sense or know this... let alone a tree, which is nothing more than a "reactionary engine"... with no "consciousness" per se....

I have always believed that the 'space' between subatomic particles is where we are connected to everything... and actually, according to the theories of Nassim Haramein [who has rewritten Einstein's field equation to accommodate torsion or Coriolis forces} one cubic inch of that space contains infinite amounts of energy - the only thing is to learn how to harness it.

Such a variety of opinions here... how will I learn about the reality of dark matter?

Domo Geshe-La, it's quite easy.. you must use your "supernatural abilities" to travel into the cosmos, and explore the dark matter personally.... :P OR perhaps you and I will be able to personally explore the phenomenon in our next human lifetime. It is unlikely that either of us will do much space exploration in this one... :)

What is called dark matter is what I see in a different way... it is living. Traveling the cosmos is nothing in comparison to awakening!! Yea... Buddha!!

Rinpoche: in the strict sense, all phenomena, even those that cannot be discovered by advanced beings because of subtle causes and conditions are empty of inherent existence. The controversy whether space is permanent or not is debated as fine points... of distinction between traditions. If dark matter has function, it is pure or clarity illusory as well as empty, whereas the contamination that brings rise to phenomena is simply the aggregation of confusion without producing a valid function.

I agree completely... and, if there is a sort of "consciousness" to this stuff, even if it be rudimentary, we "should" be able to connect to it with our "emanation bodies".... some way, some how, some day....

Rinpoche: I personally cannot accept dark matter as a fantasy, because it has a reactive existence by default: unexplained energy is there where we cannot see it with todays instruments... but tomorrow...

‎"Shikin Haramitsu Daikomyo"
Conceptually translated as, “Every experience contains the potential for the enlightenment we seek” Our own prana cannot help but tell us all the truths we need to learn. x

It's a dark matter--called so because of the unexplained mass or weight of stuff unseen out there in deep space. Because it's unseen it's a mystery. It's existence is theoretical; it's simply implied by the weight. But that's beside the point in a way--all existence seems theoretical, or even mostly non-existent. Dark matter might be pure potential--stored energy, slowed down light. Our planet qualifies?

Are there different kinds of light? Stars shine brightly, but within them, massive amounts of stuff are exploding all over the place. I'm not a physicist, but I'm aware, when making a fire in the wood stove, for instance, that I'm going to have to fuel it with heavy logs and less heavy twigs, and do some things like light a match to start the reaction. Is there a kind of light that is inherent--not dependent on stuff? Maybe the Clear Light? The light of understanding?


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